Mar 23, 2018
Hey class! Welcome to our very first Horror Pod Class
Extra Credit Episode, where we take the opportunity to interview
professionals from the horror genre. Today, we are talking
with the incomparable editor Ellen Datlow. Ellen has a brand
new theme anthology out right now named The Devil and the Deep:
Horror Stories of the Sea. We talk with Ellen quite a bit
about the new collection and you can also
read our review over at Signal Horizon.
Here are some Amazon affiliate links to the just released and
upcoming books we talk about today:
The Devil and the Deep: Horror Stories of the Sea
The Year's Best Horror Volume 10
Echos: The Saga Anthology of Ghost Stories
Signal Horizon: For fiction readers who might not know,
how important is a good editor and what techniques do you use to
help authors craft a powerful story?
Ellen Datlow: Well, that's kind of complicated. First of
all I don't read unsolicited manuscripts anymore. So what I
see is usually from people who I have worked with before or I know
they are professional writers already and they know the basics of
writing. When I buy a story I work with a writer to basically
make sure what they want to say is on the page. So I ask a
lot of questions when I am editing. I think it is important
for writers to have an editor because we are going to help you not
stumble. I consider myself as an editor, the ideal
reader. When I am looking at material I am going to help you
see what missteps you might make or have already made. My job
is to help you rewrite, or revise, to get those those mistakes out
of the manuscript. And that's not copy editing, that's
different. We aren't talking about punctuation and grammar
necessarily, we are talking about consistency in tone, consistency,
of course if I notice words or phrases repeated I will make note of
those and say "are you sure you repeat this 5 times?" There
are certain words that writers repeat a lot and with computers you
can see them really easy. Once one jumps out at me, like that
or just or but, and then you can look it up and see that there are
200 buts in your 20 page story, get rid of most of them. If
you can, and that might mean you have to rewrite the sentence or
cut out something. so basically my job is to make good
stories become great stories, hopefully. Or really good
stories even better. That's kind of what I feel my job
is.
Signal Horizon: So I got a chance to read an advance copy
of your newest anthology, The Devil and the Deep: Horror Stories of
the Sea. It was great, I was super impressed. Its 15
new horror stories all with a nautical theme. I'm really
interested in the creative process you use when you come up with a
theme for a new anthology and what was it like for this one in
particular?
Ellen Datlow: First I pitched it to my editor that I have
worked with on The Best Horror of the Year, and he liked it, it was
the first original anthology that Nightshade has bought.
Sometimes the in house editor, the publisher, wants to know who you
are going to try to get to write. I don't remember if I got
them the names in advance, but once we agree on a contract and it
is in process I will solicit the writers. Writers whose work
I like, writers whose work might be perfect for the theme.
I'll contact them and ask them if they are interested and give them
a broad outline of what I am looking for or what I am not looking
for. For the sea horror, I said I want all kinds of seas,
oceans, by the sea, and even inland seas. As you might have
noticed we have an inland sea story, by Brad Denton, that takes
place in the desert out in the west. It was a former sea and
so there is no actual water in the story, but I encourage writers
to do that. Basically, they have about ten months to write a
story, if its a new anthology. Over time I will periodically
poke them and ask them how the story is going. For every
anthology I do I ask about a third more writers than I need because
usually a third drop out for whatever reason or I don't like the
story. I keep pushing and asking how is the story coming and
if writers say "what story?" then I say, hey I need a story now!
Or, I need it in three months! Sometimes they say, I can't do
it or I tried, I don't have any ideas or I'm too busy.
Sometimes they send me a story and I just don't think it
works. Through the whole process as the stories come in I
judge, what do I have? What do I need? Are too many
stories similar to each other? At that point you start
contacting the authors who havn't sent anything in yet and say, I
don't want any more of this or that. So thats basically how
it works, some people don't buy the stories until they have all
come in, I buy them as they come in. If there is a
substantive edit I will do that before I buy the story. That
means if I think that is good and I like it, but I think it need
work I won't commit to buying the story until the writer fixes
it. Then I let them sit, it usually not until about two
months before I have to hand in the anthology that I start doing
the line edits. I try to start with the earlier stories, the
ones I bought first, so I have had time to digest them. Then
I do the line edit where I do a line by line reading to make sure
that everything seems to be in its place. Every line is
comprehensible, there is no "I don't know what you are talking
about here" kind of thing. I do the final line edit, then I
have to figure out the order of the stories, usually I do that when
I get all the stories in. Thats kind of when you balance and
see what you've got. You try to balance the reading order so
that the reader will enjoy it, but the thing about putting a table
of contents together is that there is no guarantee that anyone is
going to read it front to back. Editors have to assume you
will, because there is nothing else we can do. The first and
the last stories are the most important, the first you want to be
inviting to get the reader into the anthology. You don't want
to make it too complicated. You want to show this what the
book is going to be about, so the first story is really important
because you don't want to turn the reader off. The last story
is usually the one that the editor thinks is the most
powerful. Either that or sometimes I do a grace note, I put
the really strong story second to last, usually a longer one, and
then the last story is a shorter one that has a little punch to
it. Thats the basics of putting together an original
anthology for me, then I write the introduction. That usually
comes from the proposal, I usually add to the proposal and that
becomes the introduction.
Signal Horizon: So I heard that when you solicited some of
your past anthologies you will also come out with, "I don't want
this". In Children of Lovecraft I think it was no pastiche,
no tentacles. In the Doll Collection it was no Chuckie style
murderous dolls. Was there anything with the with the the
Devil and the Deep that you didn't want?
Ellen Datlow: Well I didn't want to concentrate on sea
monsters. I'm trying to remember I don't really think I
did. I was pretty vague on that, for that one there didn't
seem to be any obvious things to avoid. I said I wanted
horror rather than dark fantasy but other than that no. I
think that's an usual one because I don't think that the sea has
been over done. The problem is with a lot of theme anthologies is
that you've seen the theme and the specific types of stories on the
theme over and over again. That's when you have to make sure and
clarify this is what I don't want, but I don't think there has been
that many sea horror anthologies so I didn't have that
problem.
Signal Horizon: One of the stories that just really
stood out to me was Michael Marshall Smith's short story, "Shit
Happens." I think it was legitimately one of the funniest short
stories I've I've ever read and I'm dying to ask: did you know that
you were going to get something that funny when you when you ask
them to contribute?
Ellen Datlow: I had no idea. This is one of
my faves too because it is funny and I usually hate funny
horror. But it works beautifully and also I love the
secretary or the assistant, she is that the fixer. I want her
to have her story she's great. I forget her name but it's like oh
my god I know that you've got to do more with her in the
future. Michael doesn't usually write funny but this was
very funny.
Signal Horizon: So I I know better than to ask what your
favorite story from the collection is, but are there any you want
to highlight that really stand out from this collection?
Ellen Datlow: It's difficult to do. That one, but
also "Haunt" which is the last one in the anthology and I it the
one by Siobhan Carroll. I put that last because I thought it
was really powerful I don't want to give too much away, but it's
about a boat stranded in calm water. I forget what century it
is in, maybe the nineteenth century. I don't remember, but
it's not our contemporary time. I think it's horrifying from
it's based on. Some of the incidents in the story are real, I
mean they are historically accurate. It is just horrendous
but you know it's hard to describe without giving away spoilers but
that's one that I thought was a really strong story. And of
course Michael's. I found Stephen Graham Jones' story very
peculiar, I mean it's also very humorous in it's weird way.
It's about a young guy, I don't remember if he's a teenager a
little older than that, but he's stranded on a desert island and
things start washing up that he believes he wished for. Be
careful what you wish for because you might get it is the kind of
moral of that. It's got its mute amusing bits too,
but Stephen is a really powerful writer and this is actually
one of his quote unquote "lighter pieces" I think. He's very
good crime writer and he's very good at dark and
horrific material. I don't you know it's like picking a
favorite child.
Signal Horizon: I know it is it is difficult to talk about
"Haunt." Once I read it I wanted to tell everybody about it
but it's it's difficult to talk about it without giving too much
about it away.
Ellen Datlow: The information will diminish its
power.
Signal Horizon: Exactly, yeah I think one of the most powerful
pieces of of short fiction I've read in in in a long time. So,
you previously said that the story order, well we already talked
about that.
Ellen Datlow: But I didn't talk about things other than
beginning and the ending. You judge by various things, by the
tone, the point of view, where story takes place, and how long it
is. I mean the length of the story to try to very them.
You don't want like three really long stories in a row.
Sometimes if one story is complicated and really difficult or hard
to take you might put that in the middle or two thirds the way
through because you want to have your readers get used to the
rhythm of the book You want them not to be slapped in the
face too much until they're ready for it. So you put a
difficult, complex, or offensive, or maybe a provocative one you
put that later on. You don't put that first thing.
Signal Horizon: I was also struck by the by the
diversity of of all the of all the stories and it seems like it's a
it's a real balancing act you to make sure they have a wide enough
appeal and to keep the reader interested but the same time ensuring
that there is a common element there that runs through the
anthology. How much of that is credited to work do you
do? Either who you solicit or how you polish them once they
come in and how much of it is just kind of kind of good fortune I
guess?
Ellen Datlow: It's both it depends on the anthology.
Like when I did my Poe anthology, I didn't want all of them to
be House of Usher stories. There were three stories that were
kind of House of Usher stories in a way but they were different
from each other. What I would do is before people wrote this story
is I would say what are you writing about? I wanted them to write
about one of Poe's pieces of poetry or prose. Even essays too, Glen
Hirshberg wrote the Pikesville Buffalo based on short news item I
think that Poe had written or read. So it depends on the
anthology. This new one is good because it's not based
on anything specific. So I didn't have that problem. In that
I was was lucky, but at a certain point you have to see how much is
left, see what's coming in and if you see that everything's about a
certain thing you have to steer people away from certain
things. In my Black Feathers anthology, several people
have pointed out that there are quite few stories about crows and
ravens. It's like well yeah because those are really popular
birds! So once you realize you've got three stories about
ravens you say okay no more crows and ravens. Other birds
now. It depends on the anthology, what I did for my
Alice in Wonderland anthology Mad Hatters and March Hares, is I
asked each writer what you can about right about before they
wrote.
What creature going do, what aspect are you going to write about?
To get the best variety it could. They're not meant to be
retellings of events in Alice in Wonderland. So the editor
has to direct so you don't get all the same stories.
Signal Horizon: Writers are are pretty pretty open to that
kind of that kind of direction?
Ellen Datlow: Well, if you tell them straight out, yes. If
you tell them from the very beginning what you want to write about.
I don't want to know the plot I don't want to know every detail, I
just want to know what you are going to write about. In Devil
and the Deep I know Brad Denton came to me and asked me if it is
okay to write the story that has no water in it. I said I asked for
an inland sea story, sure go ahead. So that is the one that is the
most far out there, thematically. There is no sea in that
story but it takes place in a former sea and there is a boat.
If you want to guide your anthology, then yes you have to have some
input. Some editors will give them strict assignments and say
I want this or that. I'm not that way I'm not a writer.
Those are usually editors who are also writers. I'm not a
writer, I do not have ideas. I do not want to give my ideas to the
authors I want them to create their own stories and I will work
with them to make the story better. So I give guidance but I
would never give them the plot line
Signal Horizon: So I saw I saw a couple weeks ago that the
cover art and table of contents for The Year's Best Horror Volume
ten is out. The cover art as always is is amazing and the
lineup for this year looks pretty strong. It's it's due out this
summer so what are your overall impressions of that this year's
line up?
Ellen Datlow: Well I realize I have more women writers than ever
before. Its almost even, which is unusual. There is a
substantial increase in female voices in the last twenty years and
certainly the last five years. That's been increasing and I'm
finding that fabulous. I'm gratified to see that there are
women writers getting they're due coming out and writing really
great stories. I'm currently working on the best of best,
which the best of the first ten years of the book. So I am
going through early volumes and I'm writing notes. I'm not
taking any stories that were in Nightmares, which was the Tachyon
anthology that had the idea of the best of anew decade a modern
horror. It was like stories that I thought were really
terrific from 2005-2015. It was a sequel to my Darkness: Two
Decades of Modern Horror. I'm not using any of the stories from
Nightmares, which restricts me a tiny bit. Obviously I
love the stories in that anthology but I didn't want to use them
again. Its also a juggling act to pick three or so
stories from each of the ten volumes. I'm trying to get take
stories that aren't over reprinted. Things that have been
reprinted only one or two times, but that is hard because over the
years people have put out single author anthologies
and reprint anthologies. That's what I'm busy doing
right now, but I thought last year was very strong. I always find
at least twice as many stories as I can actually use. Last year's
volume is a hundred thousand words which is I think the biggest
I've done and I'm happy with all the stories. I think they
are great.
Signal Horizon: So when you do the Year's Best what does your
workflow look like I mean? Are you like constantly reading
throughout the entire year?
Ellen Datlow: Yeah, although I haven't really officially
started for this year yet because of the Best and Best. I
will probably by the end of this month be deep into reading for
this Year's Best. It's like a never ending thing. I do more work to
the best of the year, not even a complaint but I do more work for
the Year's Best compare to any other anthology and I get paid the
least, because they are all reprints.
I have people who are reading electronic magazines for
me. Something like light speed which doesn't have that much
horror. There's more and more material to read every year.
Every year it they're more anthologies coming out and I always find
out after the fact when it's too late. Sometimes I miss out on
anthologies because the publisher doesn't send to me. I went to a
con recently and it was in the dealers room and there was a
publisher that had like 3 anthologies out that were published in
2017. I said you never said this to me and they said who are
you? What kind of publisher hasn't heard of the Year's
Bests? Not just mine but others. They should be doing
this to help the writers get recognition.
Signal Horizon: You know way better than me that the
publishing industry has changed significantly in in the span of
your career. Right now there's a lot of really good horror
coming out of very small presses.
Ellen Datlow: Yes, right. Well very few large
presses will publish collect single other collections. A few
do, but it is usually to promote or go along with a novel they are
publishing. I've been mostly with medium size and large
publishers who publish my anthologies. It started with desktop
publishing, and now because it's even easier with computers and
everything. Writers can self publish, but it doesn't mean they
should. Writers think that they should just go their work out
there and someone will see it, but the problem is unless you have a
following to begin with it's very hard to get anyone's attention.
So in a sense things have changed, but they haven't changed that
much. You still need to get your work out there and have people see
or you are not going to make any money.
Signal Horizon: From my own point of view what I think one of
the one of the values of the year's best horror is not only do you
get all these great stories but that you also get exposed all these
authors that you might not have they have read before. Sometimes
you can you can pick up an author you never heard of and then you
find that they have a novel and they have all these other short
stories and you can really get engaged that way. Another part that
I really like is that is your introductions are super detailed
about what the state of the industry is is that year.
Ellen Datlow: Well thanks, gratifying. I mean, don't
love doing the summary but I take notes. I do it as I as I read I
take the notes, so it's an ongoing process through the whole
year.
Signal Horizon: So I I know that you're always super
tight lipped about your next themed anthologies but what other kind
of things are you working on right now?
Ellen Datlow: I'm not working on anything right.
For 2 years I worked on a huge ghost story anthology that this
coming out October from Saga Books called Echoes. It is over
200000 words so I have been working on that. I haven't had
time to sell anything else right now. In a way I feel free, I don't
feel under as much pressure as usual which is kinda nice.
Signal Horizon: I really appreciate you coming on and sharing
some of your knowledge with us.
Ellen Datlow: Yeah, its been a pleasure and it's been a
lot of fun.
Signal Horizon: So okay class where the big takeaways? Well if
you are a publisher make sure Ellen gets your stuff! That's
the only way that you and your authors are going to get into the
year's best. If you are a reader made sure you check out new
anthology The Devil and the Deep, its fantastic and as always The
Year's Best Horror Volume 10 is going to be is gonna be
great. So make sure you go out and pre order some Ellen's
books and maybe even go to a real life brick and mortar store and
buy a couple of them. Until next time, class dismissed.